Posts by Deputy Dog

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

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what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Syl

"Now that is where I beg to differ."

Buzzzz Wow! What a shock!Buzzzzz

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

Do you guys believe that Jesus is Jehovah...

If you mean YHWH, Yayweh Absolutly!

So is the father and the Holy Spirit.

snowbird

In Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13, the Master was referring to the practice of making riches our God.

In that context yes it was.

It can also be applied to any other Idol we dream up.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

I believe he is of the same nature as God. I just don't believe that he IS God.

That's like saying; I'm of the same nature as humans. I just don't believe I'm human.

I don't believe Jesus and the Father are the same person.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Snowbird

Both love the Master.

That's the problem, we have different masters (see Luke 16:13 and Mat 6:24). I hate her master and she hates mine.

We don't have to "hate" each other, I'll be civil as we discuss our differences.

PS and Nic

We don't always have to agree on every little point about doctrine, we are all under Our Lord and how Our lord chooses to reveal himself to each of us is Up to Him.

The Deity of Christ is the issue. It's the one that Christianity rides on. It's not a "little point about doctrine" it's THE major one. It is a fundamental of the Christian faith.

How one views Genesis is important, but not the centrol issue. That's the point I've been trying to make.

As to how Christ is revealed, you're right it is up to Him. Has he revealed Himself to YOU as a loving God or as something else?

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

You have decided this about me. Not by listening to the things I say, but by not understanding.

You've made yourself very VERY clear. You said you don't believe Jesus is God. You've also made it equaly clear that you can pick a choose what part of the bible is God breathed, and what is not.

I take Paul's words very very seriously every day, I believe they are God's words speaking to me. You, by your own admission... not so much.

I guess you feel I'm saying this out of anger or malice, well, I'm sorry if that's the way it comes across. I pray that God moves you to re-examine the bible. I also pray that you come to know the Jesus I know, the Jesus of every word of the Old and New Testaments.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

DD - I agree that seeing Jesus as God, vs seeing Jesus as the image of God changes our outlook on some things.

It doesn't change our outlook on some things, it changes our outlook on everything, including Paul.

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, (Isaiah 52:7) Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19But I say,Did not Israel know?First Moses saith, (Deut 32:21) I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Acts 8:30

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?" 31 And he said, "Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?" And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture which he was reading was this: Isaiah 53 "HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER; AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT, SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH. 33 "IN HUMILIATION HIS JUDGMENT WAS TAKEN AWAY; WHO WILL RELATE HIS GENERATION? FOR HIS LIFE IS REMOVED FROM THE EARTH." 34 The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.

Did you read the last of my post about Paul, though?

Yes, I saw you equate yourself to the Apostle Paul, which is what you did earlier in this thread.

So you think you had a Damascus road experience? Did Ananias come and lay hands on you or are you still blind?

Paul did deny Christ before he was saved. But he never did deny the scripture, in fact, he used it to preach Christ, after his conversion.

You think YOU are the exception to everything, YOU don't even need to be subject to scripture, you think it is subject to you.

Here is some advice for you from a real Apostle

2Co 11:3

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles.

Bottom line, Tammy, we have a different Jesus.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

Well, I don't believe that Christ IS God for one.

That really explains most every answer you've given, and answers every question I have.

Thanks!

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

You know what? That was just too long, and I'm saying the same things again and again. How about this: You prove to me that the bible in its modern entirety is inspired scripture.

I'm not sure where to start. I told you several post back I'm not trying to change your mind. I thought we agreed this was God's job?

What I'm trying to understand is how you can claim to be a believer in Christ (GOD) in one breath and reject much of what was revealed about him in another, by simply stating that YOU don't believe that's within his nature.

For example, when I asked for some specific scripture that is of a "different spirit than Christ", you cited (indirectly) types of passages that are intended by God to show the evil nature of men (I believe that is the purpose of the law), not the Spirit of God. I don't understand how revealing the evil nature of man negates the inspiration of scripture.

I agree that eye for an eye is the basis for much law in our society. But why is that relevant? It isn't what Christ taught. He taught us to turn the other cheek. Do not repay wrong for wrong.

An eye for an eye reveals God's justice to unbelievers. God gave the law to Moses for a society of believers and unbelievers alike. Christ comes and reveals the "law of love" (a higher standard) to believers. There is no conflict there, that I can see.

I think you answered your own question in this next example:

Since Luke says in his opening to Theopholus that he had investigated matters fully... this is not indicative of inspiration, but of investigation and report. Do I think he loved Christ and God, and that his faith inspired him to be honest and sincere and to show the fruits of the spirit? Of course. But scripture are writings inspired directly by Holy Spirit, aren't they?

What does the personality and thoughts of the narrator have to do with whether or not he is inspired by God? Was he to give up his mind and personality? It puzzles me to think of why/how anything in Luke's opening statements negates direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Look at what Luke records Jesus saying to the seventy.

Luke 10:16

"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

I'm beginning to think we have two different understandings of biblical inspiration.

It's almost as if you think these men had to become some sort of Zombies to receive prophecy. I don't believe that scripture had to be dictated, like to a secretary, in order for it to be inspired (this seems to be the way most JWs understand it).

The personality of the individual authors was present as they were moved or as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

So then, for me, everything that complies with what he said, I believe that. The rest I take with a grain of salt.

How do you know what he actually said?

The problem you have is, if you don't accept the authority of the entire Bible, you have no way of knowing what Jesus actually said. According to you, the same men that told you what he said, say things themselves that conflict with him. Why believe them at all?

I learned about Christ's teachings from the NT. From the recordings and accounts written about Him. I learn what they mean from Him, through experience and understanding that He gives me. And I do not believe that there isn't more to knowing Him than just what is written in the bible, because that is only a partial picture.

Again, if it's not a package deal, how do you know those parts (the ones containing Christ's words) of the NT are inspired or even true for that matter? How or why do you believe (as Nic asked) ANY of the bible is inspired or which is which.

Nic

Prove to me that any part of the bible is inspired scripture*. Then I can ask you questions, and you can do the explaining.

* Let's agree that 'inspired scripture' is defined as biblical text that has been revealed to the writer by God.

I would love to do that (but that's God's job) and if I were God, it would be simple. Another problem with that statement is 'inspired scripture' is as much revealed (by God) to the reader as it is to the writer. I also believe that only God can change minds and hearts.

I thought, you claimed to have made that determination, and you have no problem calling yourself an unbeliever. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not dissing you when I say that. I don't agree, but I respect your right to say that.

Nic

Prove to me that any part of the bible is inspired scripture*. Then I can ask you questions, and you can do the explaining.

* Let's agree that 'inspired scripture' is defined as biblical text that has been revealed to the writer by God.

I would love to do that (but that's God's job) and if I were God, it would be simple. Another problem with that statement is 'inspired scripture' is as much revealed (by God) to the reader as it is to the writer. I also believe that only God can change minds and hearts.

I thought, you claimed to have made that determination, and you have no problem calling yourself an unbeliever. Please don't misunderstand, I'm not dissing you when I say that. I don't agree, but I respect your right to say that.

175

Does the Christian message fall apart without a literal interpretation of Genesis?

by nicolaou in

.

what's the point of jesus if adam & eve did not 'fall' and condemn us all to sin?.

Deputy Dog

Tammy

Are Jude and James apostles? James possibly, though both he and Jude introduce themselves as servants of God and of Christ. Luke wasn't an apostle though. (you still haven't responded about him, btw) Thomas was... and I don't know very much about the Gospel of Thomas, except that it isn't in there. But why? Because some men chose what to put in and what to discard? Catholics and Protestants have a few different books that Catholics consider scripture and Protestants do not. Again, who is right?

First I used apostleship as ONE of the tests for inclusion in NT cannon, but not the only test. Without going into a long debate about the Cannon of the New Testament. Which has been beaten to death on this board. You can read about that without my help. The early church knew what was included, the questions and challenges arose as the church grew.

2nd I must not understand your problem with Luke. While he wasn't one of the 12 disciples, why would you assume he wasn't an Apostle?

My point for asking about these things, was, you seem to put the whole bible cannon into question, when the works of Paul are generally accepted by all Christians. It looks like you're throwing out the baby with the bathwater. In effect you only answer to an untestable voice in your head, not to the established word of God. In other words how would/could you be corrected or reproved when YOU get to pick and choose what YOU like.

2Ti 3:16

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Even Luther who did question some of the established cannon, never refused to be corrected by them. He only refused to be subject to the books outside of the established cannon at the time. This was the reason for the (Catholic) books being added at Trent.

Would you rebuke the Bereans in Acts 17 for testing what Paul taught using the scripture? Paul commended them for using the scriptures this way, calling them noble.

You gave me a list of THINGS, YOU don't approve of, not a list of scripture (chapter and verse) you believe is of a "different spirit than Christ". (Interesting enough though, "An eye for an eye" is the basis for most of the civil law in our society today, including the death penalty.) It appears that you throw out anything connected with the Wrath of God on unbelievers, like in your quote of Jesus

Just as Christ said, "Moses gave you this law because your hearts were hard.) Things like that.

Hardened hearts are the hearts of unbelievers. In their culture this could have been seen as mercy on the wives, freeing them from torture or death. In this context Jesus never nullified this law, so I'm not sure I understand your objection to any of this scripture.

However, I also don't think Paul meant that in the same way the WT takes it,

I doubt Paul meant much of anything the way the WT teaches it. I would suggest that the WT be ignored on all accounts. They know NOTHING of the grace of God.

Christ is who he is, regardless of what we personally think. You can't learn from me who Christ is, if your understanding is wrong and mine is right. (and vice versa) We must go to Him... in spirit and in prayer. We can, however, still follow his teachings and love one another as he loved us. That's our job, isn't it? To listen to Him?

There isn't much to disagree with here, the problem though is; How YOU know what "his teachings" are and where to find them.